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If, I said, he makes a set speech and we make another recounting

all the advantages of being just, and he answers and we rejoin,

there must be a numbering and measuring of the goods which are

claimed on either side, and in the end we shall want judges to

decide; but if we proceed in our enquiry as we lately did, by

making admissions to one another, we shall unite the offices of

judge and advocate in our own persons.

Very good, he said.

And which method do I understand you to prefer? I said.

That which you propose.

Well, then, Thrasymachus, I said, suppose you begin at the

beginning and answer me. You say that perfect injustice is more

gainful than perfect justice?

Yes, that is what I say, and I have given you my reasons.

And what is your view about them? Would you call one of them

virtue and the other vice?

Certainly.

I suppose that you would call justice virtue and injustice vice?

What a charming notion! So likely too, seeing that I affirm

injustice to be profitable and justice not.